Life in the IEP Tribe
Join us as we dive into the world of special education with two educators who have walked the same path as many of you. In addition to teaching in self-contained and collaborative settings, our hosts bring a unique perspective to the challenges and triumphs of raising a special needs child. From classroom strategies to heartfelt family moments, they offer practical advice, empathy, and a community of support. Discover how their personal experiences can shed light on your journey and gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of special education both in and out of the classroom. Welcome to the tribe!
Life in the IEP Tribe
Behavioral Insights and Tactics for Everyday Success
Can discipline truly be separated from punishment, especially when it comes to special needs education? Join us as we unravel this complex relationship, beginning with a humorous nod to the Miami Dolphins’ most recent game, before transitioning to a deeper conversation about guiding children toward positive behavior. We promise you'll discover how effective discipline focuses on growth and safety rather than punishment, using real-life stories and professional insights from both home and school environments.
Explore the nuanced world of reinforcement and discipline with us, where we demystify negative reinforcement and its distinction from punishment. We share practical examples, like the strategic use of seatbelt warnings or classroom techniques, to illustrate how removing discomfort can lead to desired behaviors. It's all about setting priorities and understanding each child's unique challenges, and you'll hear how we balance kindness with the boundaries necessary for positive development. Through personal anecdotes, we reveal the thoughtful balance required to nurture healthy behaviors in children with special needs.
Finally, we delve into strategies for tackling behavioral challenges one step at a time, preventing overwhelm for both parents and teachers. Learn about the blend of positive and negative reinforcement tools—like sticker charts and treasure boxes—and the grace needed to foster good behavior. Our improved recording atmosphere even made a noticeable difference in our conversation, and we’re excited to share actionable advice on identifying and addressing behavioral priorities in a way that's manageable and effective. Let’s embrace the journey of guiding children towards better choices together.
welcome back to the newest episode. I don't know why I always say welcome back. So welcome back to life in the life in the iep tribe. This is the newest episode, um, and, interesting enough, it it's our second attempt at this week's recording because, well, if we're going to be honest, we recorded an entire episode and we thought it was doo-doo, so we're giving it another try, right, because that's what we do. I'm a little upset because we're recording this on Sunday and I just got done watching the Dolphins lose again, and so this should be an interesting conversation. I'm going to do my very best to not be stuck in like a dark headspace because I allow the Dolphins to mess with me too much. I've been pulling for this team since I was like six, seven years old, and all they do is play with my emotions. It's like probably the most abusive relationship I've ever been in in my life, because I I mean, I buy stuff, right, I wear dolphins gear and what do they give me? Heartache, that is it.
Speaker 2:And finger nubs yeah, I like to eat my fingers. I mean, yeah, I like to eat my fingers.
Speaker 1:I mean I don't like to eat my fingers, but that's kind of my response. What's crazy is it doesn't even matter. It does not matter one bit what happens on that television, because you know what, at the end of the day, I don't play for the Dolphins, I don't get paid by them, no, I don't have to do any of that. But I tell you what it's an interesting sport. So in the game that we watched today there was a receiver for the Dolphins that got hit with like this head-to-head tackle and the poor kid I mean they took him out on a stretcher and everything. It was pretty crazy.
Speaker 1:And of course they make all these rules now to try to help protect the players. So, like you know, they can't spear each other in the head. It's going to be a penalty. You can't grab somebody by the collar of the shirt and pull them down. They have another rule where it's like you can't do a what do they say? A hip drop tackle. And they do all this because they want to keep these guys healthy and allow them to keep playing the game and enjoy the game. But anytime you have groups of people and you have uh, competition or you know, you're in a situation where you're trying to progress and be the best you can be at, whatever your specific skill or employment or whatever the case may be. Discipline has to be involved. We have to be able to direct, we need to tie our decision making to something. We can't necessarily just respond based on feelings. Discipline is very, very, very important.
Speaker 2:Now.
Speaker 1:I'm willing to bet there's not many people that have heard me say this in the last 15 seconds that would disagree. However, things get kind of weird when we start talking about discipline and we start talking about our children. It even gets a little more weird when we talk about discipline and our children that might have special needs, and so what we're going to do is we're going to take the next handful of minutes and we're going to discuss what part discipline plays in our children's lives. Now we can talk from a teacher perspective as well as from a parent perspective.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So tell me, Laura, what place does discipline have in the house of a child that has special needs?
Speaker 2:What place does it have? Yeah, as we've discussed before, there's not a whole lot of things that Xander really really likes or really really dislikes, and so disciplining can be difficult. However, for him to progress and to learn and grow, you have to have discipline. So you have to find that thing that will make the difference and help him learn and grow and stay safe. A lot of times, our children with disabilities engage in unsafe behavior, and so you have to have that discipline and we're going to get into. There's many different forms we're not just talking about physical discipline, so there's several different types, and so you have to find out what works best.
Speaker 1:Well, what we found is that our kids, whether it be in our house or in our classes, they respond best to discomfort. And now, of course, we would not ever, like you know, try to hurt a kid or anything like that. So when we talk about discomfort, it is what can we do to position this child in a way that they just they don't like the circumstance? And every time I have this conversation it reminds me of this one student that we had that I remember he was being brought to the school and when he got out of mom's vehicle he started kind of acting all crazy, and so I started counting to the kid. You know, kind of like we do with ours All right, one, two, and then the mom was like what happens at three? I said, watch this.
Speaker 1:So I went over and I held the boy's hand and that was it, and you would have thought he was just about to lose his mind. Because it's like you're making me stand still by holding my hand. I can't stand this, you are making my life miserable. And so then what happens is, you know, you get down the road and you start doing that counting. Well, the kid knows I don't want to have to stand there and hold Mr Curtis's hand.
Speaker 1:That's boring, that's no fun, and so they'll come over and walk with you and now not to say that worked 100% of the time. However, what had happened is this particular student learned if I don't follow the rules, then I have to do something I don't want to do, something I can't stand doing. And so when we talk about discipline, we're talking about, you know, training these children up in the way that they should go, shaping them and molding them. Not I'm mad at you, so now I want you to suffer, because that's abuse Absolutely, it's not discipline, absolutely. We don't want them to do right and wrong just based on whether or not a teacher is there in the room, but instead to learn that I need to make safe decisions, and when I make, safe decisions, I have a pretty good time with my life versus.
Speaker 2:If I make unsafe decisions, then there's consequences that I don't want to have to deal with. So what are some of the ways that discipline can take place in the home and in the classroom? Well, first, you have to know and identify the needs of the child, because, as we've talked about before that they're all different, they all respond to different things and they have different needs. So you need to find out what it is that they need, what they understand, what they like, what they don't like.
Speaker 1:So it really is individualized, much like what we talk about as far as what we do in the school building, it's individualized. You really have to take the time to get to know the student and kind of find what makes them tick.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And then what we like to try first is, of course, the positive interventions. You know we've talked about before how, if we're trying to make sure that a student is something as simple as coming and sitting on the floor to engage in our whole group activity and it's something that they've been struggling with If they come over and stand on the carpet, then make a big deal about it. So that's one of the things make a big deal about every step towards the behavior that you're wanting the child to see.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's good that you mentioned steps. Yeah, it's good that you mentioned steps, because the one thing that we have found is that nothing changes overnight. Like there's a process to help a child get from one point to the other, and like you're saying so, you're talking about okay, so I want this kid to come down and sit on the carpet. Well, is sitting on the carpet really the goal? Like, do we just want to see a kid sit on a carpet? Absolutely not. We're working towards something that will help direct him in life. Okay, well, at this time, here's appropriate behavior. Right, at this time, this is how I listen to the instruction given and then wait for direction. So it's not just a I just want you to sit on a carpet, right, because that's not going to help a kid at all, but it does have everything to do with helping them make those good choices.
Speaker 2:I've encountered some students that don't like to sit on the floor, and so not only do you reward them for the good choices they make, but you also give them choices good choices that you also they make, but you also give them choices Okay, you can sit. You know, a lot of times I'll say, all right, you can sit on the blue carpet or you can sit in the blue chair, because they're still following directions, they're still facing the where I want them to face, where the learning is going to happen. But if they really have an aversion to sitting on the floor, then they're not uncomfortable, and so that positive praise and reinforcement and giving them options and sometimes the kids don't respond to the positive praise and there's been times where it's like, okay, so look at you, you walked right on over here and found a seat so you might hand them a Skittle or a cheese ball or sometimes a little sticker. So finding those, so they know what they're supposed to be doing, is important.
Speaker 1:So let me ask this question what if so? So what if you have a student? That is, what if you have a student that you said you want to give them? Maybe they just don't want to sit, maybe that's a big deal for them, and so you might look for a different option, right, right, like maybe. Well, instead of sitting here, maybe they can stand in this particular area, or you know, whatever the case may be. So my question is so what about being fair? Is it fair to let this kid stand where all the other kids have to sit?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Explain that to me.
Speaker 2:Okay. So in our house and as our family, and as well as our classrooms, we do what is fair. However, a lot of our kids feel like fair is equal. We don't necessarily do equal things, because equal is getting the same thing as everybody else, whereas fair is getting what they each child needs to be successful, or each individual needs to be successful. So it may mean that so-and-so is permitted to walk back and forth at the back of the carpet, while others, who we know do not have an inversion of sitting on the carpet, are not allowed to. But if this individual is pacing back and forth but they're also engaging, then that's what's fair for them. If I make them sit on the carpet or sit in a chair on the carpet or sit in a chair, it could be something that's painful for them sensory-wise and they will be focusing more on that or getting upset and then all learning ceases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we got to be. We have to be fair, All right. So we talked a little bit about the positive reinforcers. So anytime you have a positive, there's always a negative. So what is a negative reinforcement?
Speaker 2:A negative reinforcement is when you take, take away something, but not necessarily that's different than punishment, so you're going to take away that thing. That's uncomfortable. So, like we were saying, if the child does not want to sit down and I make him sit down, then when I allow him to walk, that's negative reinforcement because I'm taking away that uncomfortable aspect of the directive and reinforcing the behavior that I want.
Speaker 1:So negative reinforcers are not the same as punishment, correct Right. So one of the things I know that I had an instructor tell us is it's very similar to the like that beeping noise that you'll get in the car if you don't put your seatbelt on Right. So the seatbelt beeps, beeps, beeps, beeps. Put the seatbelt on, noise stops.
Speaker 1:Right so there's a negative reinforcer by making this decision, that something's being taken away to make the experience better for the child. One example that might be something like you know little Jimmy had a great day today. He followed the rules. So you know what Little Jimmy didn't have to do homework. Tonight we're not sending homework home right.
Speaker 1:So it's not punishment and negative reinforcement is not the same thing. So, but what was? What would something like that look like in the classroom setting or or even the home setting with our, with our children that have special needs?
Speaker 2:The negative reinforcement. Yeah, I have a student that has a work inversion. We have a student that does not like to complete tasks and one of the things that they really do not like is having to cut and then so if we go and cut the pieces for him and present it to him already cut out, he will independently complete his work. So we're taking that piece that he really does not like because in the grand scheme that part's not that important.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so that he's going to fight back if we try to make him do that. But if the end game is that he completes his work, then we're taking away the part that's uncomfortable for him.
Speaker 1:so he still completes his work, it's uncomfortable for him, so he still completes his work, and you made a comment that I think is really important too. Is that looking at in the grand scheme, what is it that we want to accomplish? So I know one of the things and we'll probably touch on this a little bit later is what hill are we willing to die on, right? What are the things that we are going to? You know, tie down to that. This is important. You know this has to be done Because, like you said, if the kid doesn't cut the paper himself, but by presenting the pieces and the student takes those and completes the work, that's what we're looking for, right, right, we want to see them complete a task.
Speaker 1:We want to see them, and so and there's going to be all kinds of different opinions and perspectives on what that looks like, but it really is important as parents, as teachers, as anybody that may work in the education system, because again we've got a growing population. You know the number of students that receive services under special education.
Speaker 2:Or even other family members of you. Know the children with disabilities too, because sometimes you have family members that believe that this child should be doing this or this child should be doing that. So it's important to talk about what do we want them to do, what do we find important and what are we willing to overlook.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that just in our home there's numerous stories, but one in particular that comes to my mind was, you know, early on in our relationship when Xander and Brandon they were just little tykes then and we're staying with you and I don't know if I was at school or work or something, but you want to go ahead and tell that story Because I think you know the story I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:I think I do. Yeah, go ahead. So at that time I think Xander was a little bit of a screen fiend and he liked to watch movies. He liked to be on a computer and he would want to watch any screen that he could get.
Speaker 1:At the same time.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so he was sitting at the table and he had a computer and a portable DVD player, and this is before. I think we had done a lot of research into the harms of allowing that.
Speaker 2:And one thing he liked to do was he would watch a scene and back it up and watch the scene and back it up. And so he already had those two and his brother was in the living room on the PlayStation. Well, he decided he also wanted to watch a movie on that PlayStation. And I told him no, and he did not like that. And so he started to get upset and Brandon, being the sweet big brother he is, was like oh, it's okay, I'm done, he can have it. And I said well, that's great that you're done, and if you don't want to play, that's fine, but he's still not going to get to watch the movie on this. He has two things already that he has, and so you can. If you don't want to play, that's fine, but he's still not going to get it. So go ahead and decide what you want. And so I believe that was the time that Xander got so mad at me. He proceeded to walk into the other room and vomited all over the floor.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. So he walked from a tile floor, wood floor, to a carpeted floor and then threw up on purpose. Yes, good times. But and I have you tell that story because there are going to be people who know your family or are part of your family that they want to be kind, and that's good. But by allowing, by allowing xander to just do whatever he wants to does not help him progress in his life. As a matter of fact, what you're doing is you're building this, this perspective of you know that he can just do and get whatever he wants. Oh well, he has autism.
Speaker 1:So right you know, just let him do whatever because he can't help it, right? And what we have found is that is definitely not the case. You know, we've had the privilege of teaching some fantastic kids over the last golly. I mean you've been in the school system for much longer than I have. I mean you've been in the school system for much longer than I have.
Speaker 1:But what we have found is that there's very few kids that we have come into contact with whose negative behavior is a direct reflection of their disability. Right, that there's usually a combination going on on, and oftentimes what we see is what you experienced with with xander is that we, we don't want to rock the boat, we want to keep our kids happy and we may have the best intentions, but then, but we, we grow monsters when we do that, when we don't teach them discipline, when we don't teach them right and wrong, when, when we don't teach them the importance of following directions, and so that's kind of. One of the things that we want to make really clear in this conversation is that every kid, I can almost say with 100% certainty that your child can learn to do the right thing, can learn to be respectful, can learn to engage with people in a way that is acceptable.
Speaker 2:Right and I think a lot of misconceptions that we found with people in Zander I think that there's other people that have the same misconceptions is that because they have a disability, they don't understand what they're doing. And a lot of times they have gotten that manipulation down and they do understand what they're doing. And so I think that's that conversation I had to have with Brandon afterwards and I told him I appreciated him doing what he thought was being the kind big brother and I wasn't just trying to be mean. But if I allowed Xander to just do what he wanted and have everything he wanted, I was enabling that negative and undesired behavior and as he grew it would do nothing for him but get him in trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've talked about positive reinforcers, negative reinforcement. And then here's the one that, like nobody likes to talk about, and I get it is punishment. Now, what is punishment?
Speaker 2:It is according to our notes here. We had to make notes because we found we were just rambling sometimes. Yeah, so it's discouraging undesired behavior by providing negative consequences when the behavior occurs.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what this does not necessarily mean is it does not mean that punishment is inflicting physical pain. A lot of people have different ideas on whether that's acceptable or not, and that conversation we're not even going to have right now. But what we do want to discuss is the importance of discomfort and we started talking about this at the beginning and that is you and putting the children in a position where they realize that this I don't want to do this.
Speaker 1:Putting together the when I make this type of choice, these are the repercussions, right? I mean, we've got students that you know, things like missing out on certain free times, right, like not you know, okay, okay, so you weren't following the directions today, um, you've had multiple opportunities to do so and because of this we're not going to be. We can't allow you to play with your race car or have some computer time, or right, and so we remove things, because we've learned that I'll quote my dad People don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel hate. That's pretty good, wasn't it? I should start doing some voiceover work. I should start doing some voiceover work, but no, but there's an awful lot of truth to that.
Speaker 1:Is that the times that we learn the most. I mean, I look at my own life. It was pain that caused me to realize this was not a good choice. Discomfort, this was not a good choice. Oh, look like, I have no money. I have no money, I have no job. I have no house. I have no right, these different things that made me go. I don't want to live like this anymore. Right, and so the same concept can be worked out with our students, with our children, and that when we make decisions that are harmful, there's going to be consequences. We are going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:I remember one of the things that we used with Xander was we had his sticker chart. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was, you know, and he made the good choice because he was going through some things and we would give him a sticker and then, at the end of whatever chosen period, there was a reward. And at that time it was typically a movie which we had already scaled that way back, movie which we had already scaled that way back. But, you know, it got to the point where he understood what putting that sticker on or taking the sticker off meant that he, if he didn't get to this point by making these decisions, that he was not going to get that movie at that time, that movie at that time.
Speaker 1:Well, and what we've learned is not effective is, from the standpoint of punishment, not giving any grace.
Speaker 2:Oh right.
Speaker 1:Right, so so realistic expectation. I can remember when I was in kindergarten I think it was in this class that I was in we had these, we, we built these little boxes. Well, we didn't build them, they were like milk cartons that were cut, but they were little treasure boxes. And so every day, at the end of the day, the teacher would give us you know, if we made the right decision, we got like a gold coin or but that that and so then at the end of the week, if you had four gold coins would have been five.
Speaker 1:On friday, you, you got this. Like you got to go to this treasure chest and pick out something cool. Well, I never had that. Like, by tuesday, I've lost a gold coin already. Like, in particular, I think I think I got a boot or something like that.
Speaker 1:I don't remember what they stood for, but what I do remember is thinking, well, there's no chance for me to do this, and who cares? Like, why am I going to bust my rear end to be good? Well, you should be good just because you're supposed to be good? Okay, cool, but I'm right, okay so, but we found too that in in dealing with our students, that there has to be, there has to be grace. Right, there has to be. You know, if you've got six opportunities during the course of the day to earn this prize, okay, well, you need four, right, right, because you know what I mean. I've been on this planet for over 47 years and I constantly make poor choices, like when I say constantly, I mean over the course of my life. I might go days where I, hey, I did pretty well today, right, but typically there's going to be something at some point in the day where I think to myself wow, that was just stupid.
Speaker 2:Right, I shouldn't have done that, or I shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so if we our children, are smart enough to figure that out, that if okay. So during my first block I blew it, so I did not get to move my car around the track. Then I have to move it every time I move classes. So if I didn't do it this time then I'm not going to earn it for the rest of the day. So I'm just going to do what I want and it makes sense. But if they know that, hey, it's okay. So you struggled during this class and it's okay because you'll have another chance, let's go on to this one and you have another chance to earn your reward. You still can earn your reward because they figure that out Yep True story.
Speaker 1:So negative reinforcers, positive reinforcers, punishment, grace, grace, right has to all be in there, um, and so what is the? I think we've kind of already answered this, but what is the best approach?
Speaker 2:Best approach? Yes, combining them all.
Speaker 1:The best approach is yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, there's you giving them those that positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, and also when necessarily having consequences. So it has to be a balance, a consistent balance, excuse me for it to be beneficial.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think it goes back to what we opened with, and that is, you got to look at the individual and see what is going to help motivate them the best. Because, again, at the end of the day, it's not about just doing like do what I tell you to do, it's let's learn positive, healthy behavior.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So when I'm older, I'm carrying that same idea. So, real quick, at the very end of this, Mrs Curtis, what is something that we could tell a parent that they may have, or even a teacher they may have, a student, they may have a child that has multiple behavior issues trashes the room he or she punches holes in the walls he or she does, and there's this long list of things that are destructive or are negative behavior. How in the world does a parent or a teacher address a child that has all of these issues? Because it can be overwhelming All of these issues, because it can be overwhelming.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, you pick one.
Speaker 2:Pick one at a time, pick the one that I mean.
Speaker 2:You can go either way.
Speaker 2:You can either pick the one that's the most challenging, that you really feel that the child needs to work on first, that the child needs to work on first, or you can maybe pick the one that the child is going to be able to extinguish first, thereby receiving a lot of praise and positive reinforcement and also probably some negative reinforcement, because if they're not doing this behavior anymore, they're not receiving consequences for it, and so if you do something that seems like is a little easier to get rid of, then they I think I feel that they will make that quarter correlation and then you work, work on the next one and, yeah, you might have to deal with this one that you really struggle with, but it'll get there or if you really just cannot and it's not safe, then absolutely go for that one first. So I think, once again, that goes back to identifying the needs of the student and the needs of the class or the needs of the household. But pick one, because if you try to work on multiple behaviors, it's going to get hard and confusing.
Speaker 1:For everybody involved. Yeah, so with that, I think we're going to wrap up this episode. I'm certainly happy that we trashed the other one and did this one instead. I think our conversation was much better.
Speaker 2:We're also not coming at this after a day of work in the middle of the week.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, so that was the point I was going to make, is that? Well, we're recording on a Sunday, so outside of the Dolphins game, it's been a good day. Yes, all right. So, yep, we'll wrap that up for now and we'll talk to you next time.