Life in the IEP Tribe
Join us as we dive into the world of special education with two educators who have walked the same path as many of you. In addition to teaching in self-contained and collaborative settings, our hosts bring a unique perspective to the challenges and triumphs of raising a special needs child. From classroom strategies to heartfelt family moments, they offer practical advice, empathy, and a community of support. Discover how their personal experiences can shed light on your journey and gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of special education both in and out of the classroom. Welcome to the tribe!
Life in the IEP Tribe
From Integration to Genuine Inclusion
Discover the complexities and triumphs of educational inclusion as we navigate the unexpected chill of Southeast Georgia's weather, drawing us indoors for a reflective conversation. Learn how to transform educational spaces into inclusive environments that empower students with disabilities to learn alongside their peers. With insights from parents and teachers, we explore what true inclusion entails, going beyond mere integration to ensure students receive the tailored support they need through individualized education plans (IEPs).
We unravel the challenges of achieving genuine inclusion in education, emphasizing that it involves more than just placing students with disabilities in general classrooms. Our experiences in various educational roles highlight the necessity of personalized strategies, sharing tales of both success and failure. Balancing diverse educational needs within classrooms is no small feat, but finding effective solutions is pivotal for each student's academic journey. Collaboration is key, and we dive into the importance of early intervention, open communication among educators, and teacher training to foster successful inclusion.
Join us as we share practical tips for teachers and parents on fostering inclusive environments. Discover the power of teamwork between parents and schools, and the importance of keeping the student's needs at the forefront of every decision. Engaging in open dialogue and exploring every avenue for inclusion can make all the difference, echoing the belief that change is possible for everyone involved. With inspiration from an iconic moment in "Rocky IV," we underscore the potential for transformation and the shared goal of creating a world where every student can succeed.
at the time of this recording. We've been in this house for days at least the sun's out right now yeah, it's been cold like silly cold.
Speaker 1:So, for those that do not know, we reside in southeast georgia and you know, typically when I tell people that we live in Georgia, their response is oh, near Atlanta, no, no, no, no, we live closer to Jacksonville, florida, and so we're right. I think we're about like maybe seven miles or so from the border, so we are not used to super cold. Like we get a week of winter, it seems like every year, where we have to pull out the big jackets and cover our hands and all of that.
Speaker 2:It's usually not even until February.
Speaker 1:Right, and so what we've had in the past couple days is, in some areas close to us, there's been snow. I've got friends that have posted pictures of beaches covered in snow. I've got friends that have, you know, posted pictures of beaches covered in snow. Now we didn't get snow as much as we got ice everywhere, and I haven't lived up north in a very long time, and so I am incredibly thin skinned. My blood is. Is is pretty. Uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 2:Thin.
Speaker 1:Thin, it's watery even, and so, yeah, so we're kind of hiding out in the house and figured, hey, this is a good time to put together a conversation about inclusion Now, we've talked about inclusion before a handful of episodes back Now, we've talked about inclusion before a handful of episodes back. But what we want to do today is we want to approach inclusion from the standpoint of a parent, from the standpoint of a teacher, and kind, probably a really good idea to provide a definition on what inclusion is. Because what I've learned is that as a society we have become okay with minimizing definitions, okay with allowing it, and when I say allowing I don't mean like controlling, but kind of assuming that when we go into conversations that everybody uses the same definitions as we do. And here's a quick thing about the American language.
Speaker 1:I was in a. I had a class, golly, years ago in seminary when I had an instructor talk to me about it was one of the Greek classes. So Greek is for those of you that have done it, and get it good on you. It was a struggle for me.
Speaker 2:I think there's a reason, there's a term that says yeah, it's just, it's Greek to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this instructor was talking about context right, and reading things in context and allowing context to build what it is that build the perspective that you have, build the foundation for your conversation. And he told us a story about meeting somebody that worked for Merriam-Webster's dictionary. And my instructor said to this friend of his that must be really cool having a job that dictates how the entire country defines words. He said you'd be surprised that it actually works the other way, that usage of the word over time and that usage of the word over time shapes the definition. And so what he was saying is that as the years go on and people use words, it will begin to change its definition over time and be something completely different than it was 20 years ago Now at a very like surface-level conversation.
Speaker 1:You know, when we were growing up, there were certain words that you know that we used as kids, that adults looked at us and thought that's crazy, like, that doesn't even make sense. And now, even today, we hear kids use words and we find ourselves trying to figure out where in the world did that even come from? Right, right, no, cap, what, like why would anybody say that? But then, like we said things, rad and Bad man. That's bad. That's bad. What do you?
Speaker 2:mean it's bad. No, it's not bad, it's good.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, mom bad.
Speaker 2:That's bad. What do you mean? It's bad? No, it's not bad, it's good.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, mom Right, they're so old, they just deal with the times. But anyway, I said all of that to say for this conversation to go forward, it's probably a really good idea to lay out our definition of what inclusion is, is, and so that way, if anybody were to listen to this you know, anybody other than my mom and had some questions or comments or something they want to add to the conversation we're moving from, we're starting on that same platform of the definition of inclusion. So, laura, yes, can you define inclusion for this conversation?
Speaker 2:Yes, so according to the National Education Association, or the NEA, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, or IDEA, defines inclusion in special education as providing students with disabilities access to general education classrooms and curriculum. It's also known as a least restrictive environment, or LRE so, and it aims to create learning environments where all students can learn together. And, as we've talked before, these students with disabilities, we're talking about students that have an IEP. We say it all the time the I is individualized, so not only is their plan individualized, so should their inclusion be individualized and not just be a blanket. Either they're all in or all out.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad that you added that second part, because if we would have stopped that access, that could cause someone to believe that inclusion is simply having a child with a disability put in a classroom with kids that may not have a disability or maybe you know their development is typical, but we know that inclusion is so much more than just putting a kid in a classroom, right, right. So if it was just access, well then shove them all in, and I've heard stories of districts that do that, that there are schools that would take profoundly disabled kids and put them in the same classroom with kids that are receiving more support for, say, a learning disability, and those that are typically developing. So you have all these kids just crammed into one room with six, seven adults, the idea being that, well, you have all these. The number game is very popular, and so the thought is well, if there's all these adults in a classroom, if we've got nine adults in a classroom with 30 kids, I mean that's a three to one, that's not bad, and that's what happens when we play the number game.
Speaker 1:Now, anybody that has ever been in a classroom before knows that the situation that I just described is scary. It'd drive anybody crazy listening to soft, sweet music in my ears while rocking back and forth? That would be horrible for me. But again, inclusion is so much more than just access. It's so much more than just being put into a classroom.
Speaker 2:You have to provide those students with accommodations and the support needed for them to be successful in that setting, whether that means successful academically, successful socially, functionally they need to be. These supports and accommodations need to be provided so they can have be as successful as possible when they're in that setting.
Speaker 1:We've had some pretty interesting experiences. We've been able to work together, and this is our fifth year working together, side by side, and prior to that I had three years in the co-teach setting and I know that you, as a para, you worked in a special education classroom. I know that you worked in the general education classroom at a kindergarten level, where you saw students of all different abilities even at that age, at that early age of five.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And so and so there's been, we've had a good bit of interaction with what are supposed to be inclusion opportunities and what we found is like what you just said, is that that individualized part is huge. Like I can think of one student that I that I worked with and they were. I mean they struggled in the general education classroom and they were in the classroom because the parent just nope, I just want them in there, just nope, I just want them in there. Unfortunately, this student couldn't read, couldn't write. That classroom with the student for 45 to 50 minutes for math and 45 to 50 minutes for English language arts. This student was not set up for success.
Speaker 2:And you're not talking about a kindergarten student.
Speaker 1:I am not talking about a kindergarten student. Yeah, this isn't an early grade like a kindergarten first grade. This was an older student and so that's sad, because while this particular student was engaging socially, they were able to take advantage of that. The extent of their education was next to nothing. And unfortunately we'll see things like that happen and students just be kind of pushed along and really not engaging academically where they need to.
Speaker 1:And so then there's one picture. Then we can flip that too to a time when I had another student. That was was when I first got the student was pretty aggressive, um, handled, handled redirection and direction not very well at all, but the student had a pretty high aptitude, like they could learn, they were smart, and what kept them from spending time in the general education classroom was this behavior. And so you know I do everything I can to help the student get out into that general setting, because in the settings that we work in currently settings that we work in currently it is very hard for the students to get an education that helps them to progress academically, right?
Speaker 1:So if we were to talk about, like our current setting, having the self-contained adaptive, adaptive curriculum inside that group, it is incredibly hard to cover the full spectrum of education, right? Right, it's hard to have a group of seven, eight, nine students whose aptitude is, I mean, they're just, you couldn't get any further and try to allow them access to the standards and academically grow. It's very, very difficult. And so there's kind of this, I don't know this kind of like issue of what do we do with these students. And so go ahead and answer that question, laura, what do we do with the students?
Speaker 2:I just want to put a little bit, a little clarification there too. And you're talking about, you know, the students and their ability to learn. Of course, all our students are able to learn, and when you were talking about the students' ability to learn, that they could learn, you meant learning at a grade level, right Learning at their grade level, versus at an adapted level. I'm not saying they can't learn at all, you're not saying that the rest of our students can't learn.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:The ones in our class? Well, no, they don't need to be in here because they can't learn.
Speaker 1:No, no, no no.
Speaker 2:Just wanted to clarify that little bit right there and then to answer that question. What do we do? Is what we like to say? We push them out, we try to our goal and we say this in kind of a kidding, not kidding our goal is to get our kids out of our rooms. As much as we love our kids, if we can get them out of our rooms as much as possible and in that inclusion setting, then that means the world to us. However, we also have found that sometimes some of our students that are higher achieving achieving and more functional in our rooms it can be deceptive because we have them in our rooms and oh well, you know, maybe the student, and then they get into that classroom and it's difficult for them to keep up.
Speaker 1:So it's you know it's. It's an affirmation that they are functioning best in our class, academically and socially right, so that forcing them into that setting is not going to help both sides of that the social, emotional and the academic.
Speaker 2:Right, right, but we're also firm believers in trying it as as much as we can and as early as we can.
Speaker 2:That we've said just with about everything in this industry.
Speaker 2:This field is that early intervention, early detection, early intervention, intervention and why not try, when you have these little ones in kindergarten, and try to have them in kindergarten as much as possible, because, one, they're kindergarten and they're going to be immature, they're going to develop it in different ways, because you have some kids that go into kindergarten and turn five in a matter of weeks and then you have other ones that are in kindergarten and aren't going to turn five until later on in the school year.
Speaker 2:So you know, so those are kind of our experiences that we just push it out, and we've had great, great teachers that have, um, some of them seasoned, said yes, give, give, give me them all, just give them all to me, and then other ones that are like, okay, so how am I supposed to do this with these students and this, this student and, um, you know, and so that all the teachers' experiences are different. We also have teachers that are willing. However, their preparation courses don't necessarily teach them extensively on how to teach students with disabilities. They may have a course or two on how to help the lower achieving students in their classroom with disabilities not necessarily students that have more challenging, more challenges learning than their typical developing peers. So our experience has kind of been all over with inclusion.
Speaker 1:So if our goal is to see our students progress academically and socially, emotionally, to the fullest extent right, we want to see them become the best all-around individual that they can, how do we make that happen? And I think that you really made a point in what you were just saying about the importance of conversation, right. So we've had, we've worked with different teachers that, like you said, I know what I want to do with them, I know how I'll include them, I know they already have that, that perspective, knowledge right.
Speaker 1:But I think equally as important is to have the teacher that says I don't, I don't know exactly what to do, I don't know what to do with this student, I don't know what the best approach would be. And that's hard to do. That's hard to do as adults, that's hard to do as teachers is to say, especially if we've been doing it for a while, to say I don't know. And so I think that it has to start a conversation If we're going to be successful in serving the whole child, which is what our goal should be. Now, if you're a teacher and your whole thing is I just want to have a schedule that matches my kids and not have to work in the summer. Go do something else, like for real. Just go do something else because you're not doing yourself any good, you're not doing the kids any good. Just find something else to do.
Speaker 1:But I believe that I don't know if I've met a teacher Let me think about this I don't think I've met a teacher that gave me the impression they don't care about the kids. So if they're out there, they're few and far between Right. And so if we can tie to that goal of helping the child be successful, I think step one is conversations, again being willing to say I don't know what to do, and to collaborate with each other to talk about ways to best serve these kids. But what are some other things that need to happen for us to be successful?
Speaker 2:Well, like I said, this conversation, that collaboration is key Because we've had students that we share with the gen ed teachers and then they also possibly are in the classroom when the co-lab teacher comes in and serves. So then the co-lab teacher has questions and, look, I mean we've worked with some great co-lab teachers that are willing to take on the responsibility of working with students even though they're not technically their responsibility.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily on their caseload that love the students and want though they're not technically their responsibility Right.
Speaker 2:Not necessarily on their caseload, that love the students and want to see them benefit and like, hey, if you can help them and I can help them and we all can help them. And so the hard part there is that collaboration time, because okay, well, this teacher has. Well, we had one teacher try to schedule a meeting and say, okay, can we talk first thing in the morning? And it's like, okay, well, they get here at this time, but then this one they have this amount of time in the morning and then you know, we start receiving children earlier than this one, and so it's like we can give you five minutes or we can catch each other in the hallway maybe. So that's one of the things, at least at a school level, that those teachers need to be provided with some time to talk. And then the parents need to be included as well. And you know you've said before that we're not assuming that these parents don't know or understand. You know what is offered and we know that we have parents that you know research and look and say, no, this is what I want for my children or my child. But you know, parents need to be involved in those conversations and I think parents need to be aware that their voice is important in this. I recently had parents tell me so well, you know you're the teacher, so whatever you think is best we should do, and I told absolutely not. No, that's not how it should work, because you're their parent and your desires are important, and parents need to know that if you want a certain setting for your child, then these things should be done to accommodate that to a I don't know what word I'm looking for there rational level. I guess you would say You're going to have team members that disagree, but I think in the end what needs to be looked at is what is in the best interest of the student.
Speaker 2:Pulling them out just to pull them out does them no good. Push them in just to push them in sometimes is more harmful. But providing it goes back to providing support support to the teacher, support to the student, support to the support staff that might be working with them. That's one of those things that need to happen, for those are some of the things that need to happen for inclusion to be successful. As far as also training his general education, teachers aren't often equipped how to instruct students with disabilities. Paraprofessionals aren't always, don't always, receive training in how to support students with disabilities, how to modify some of their work. We're fortunate to have a fantastic staff for some of our children that go into the general education classes and that can say, okay, so they're working on this. And I was thinking that maybe something like this do we have anything that I can take with me so they can still be working, but not necessarily this level. And, however, all support staff haven't received that kind of training or instruction or have that knowledge.
Speaker 1:I know, as human beings, it's not uncommon to not be able to see past what you're in the middle of at the time, right, and so it's easy for a teacher to, and it makes sense to be focused on what is happening between these hours at school, right? So this is what I see from the student at this time and not consider another perspective outside. I'm not saying you won't listen to another perspective or anything like that, but the thought doesn't often even cross the mind, because this is what I'm dealing with right in front of me, and I know that we just recently realized that. You know, we never asked parents like where do you, where do you see your child going? What does it look like to you based on your interactions with your child, right? What do you see for middle school, high school, you know, post-secondary?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:What is it that, based on your experience, based on your time with your student or your child, what do you see? Because everything that we talk about is going to be, from what we experience in these walls, our job. We don't work in other settings. We're not like the ABA therapist or the occupational therapist or the speech and language pathologist, who often work outside of the school system as well. We just see them inside of our walls, and so it's important to be able to take those two pictures and put them together, because without doing that, we're trying to solve a puzzle without the box.
Speaker 1:All right, we've got pieces. I've got my puzzle piece in school, parent, you've got your puzzle piece at home and with family, and when you go to the grocery store and when you go to Walmart and when you go to church and whatever it is that your life is built around. But we have to be able to take those things and put them together, and that doesn't happen unless we have conversations teachers having conversations with teachers, gen Ed SPED, parents having conversations with Gen Ed SPED and really looking for what needs to happen to help get that student to where where, collectively, we believe that they can go or should go right um yeah, dropping stuff, it's all right.
Speaker 2:I, yeah, I agree 100 that the first step in successful inclusion is communication, and whether it be emails or set up a meeting, and, as we all know that our schedules are different, our times that we're serving kids are different and our planning is usually different, and so just trying to find some common time to meet and discuss these things are important, and so I mean there's some things that we'll go. You know, briefly, some tips, just to get started. If you go back to work next week and you're a teacher and, hey, guess what, the students come into your class.
Speaker 1:Because it could happen.
Speaker 2:Right, you know what do you do. Or a parent, you know you decide that, okay, hey, I want my child to be included more. What do you do? So a couple of things as far as teachers, what they can do to ensure that the students that are coming into their class have a space for them and I know space is precious in these classrooms.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of things that need to be in classrooms, but if you can give these students a place that's theirs you don't understand how huge that is, whether that's a desk, or if you have tables you give them a seat at the table with their peers instead of okay, they can sit at this back table, back here, because that's really not inclusion and invite them to your parties, whether it be class parties. Ensure that the students coming into your classroom get invited to field trips and we've got some teachers that do this already. We're fortunate to have them and when they're on these field trips, let them, you know, make sure that they're not. Let them make sure that they're included in the groupings and included in the pictures and the lunches, because they're coming into your classroom, they're part of your class and help them.
Speaker 1:Help them feel like that they're part of your class and help them feel like that. So another thing that I would want to add to that, as far as a teacher goes that has the inclusion setting and we've already talked about asking questions, but I would even go as far as to you know, let me push pause on that let's talk about just for a second, the inclusion teacher. Like us, we should be having conversations with those general education and co-teach teachers as well Because, like you said earlier, you know we see our kids operating in our setting and there's oftentimes things that we see that would help us or cause us to believe that they might work, might be able to get some more inclusion time, and so for those things to happen, there's got to be that connection with the excuse me the adaptive teacher and the inclusion teacher to talk about those things. What do you think the best way to try this out would be and we see more of that in elementary school, because we're just beginning to learn at this time as students but what part of your day do you think would be best for a student? That one, two, three, right, that we academically don't know that they're going to be able to connect with it at all. However, we want to see them connect with students their age and get some of that social time.
Speaker 1:How does that work for you? When is best for you? Instead of of we often just try to like, force people into places, and that's not. I'm not saying just the adaptive teachers, I'm saying all teachers, because we have so much to deal with. It's one of those. Well, here, just try it, tell me how it goes right. And then, from a teacher or from a parent standpoint, if you have a student that is in an adaptive classroom and is self-contained and you want to see your kid get an opportunity, go ahead and start talking to your teacher. Give it a shot, because you're never going to know unless you try.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So we've been talking for a little bit now, and I think it's about time to wrap it up.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Do you have any last-minute words of wisdom that you would like to share with our listener?
Speaker 2:I think, just following up what you talked about, the parents you know that share these concerns with your teachers your child's teacher and or these desires for your child's teacher and ask questions and if there's something that is important to you, then do everything you can do to ensure that you've explored every option, everything you can do to ensure that you've explored every option?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got to be willing to. You know, leave our toes at home. Yes, don't worry about them getting stepped on and remember that it is the kid right, the student.
Speaker 2:And it's a team. It's not the school versus the parent Right and parents. If you've been led to believe that whatever the school proposes or whatever the school thinks is final say, then I apologize, because that's not the case. Your voice matters, your opinion matters, you know you're also. You are one of the experts on your child absolutely so we'll wrap up with this.
Speaker 1:This entire time I've had the like that last scene of rocky four playing in my head, after he just gets done beating the russian, and they hand rocky balboa the microphone and he says, if I can change and you can change, everybody can change. And then you know like all the Russians are chaining his name because that's what would happen. That's exactly what would happen. So, anyway, until next time again, I'm Jared with my wife, laura, and we'll see you later. Take care.