Life in the IEP Tribe
Join us as we dive into the world of special education with two educators who have walked the same path as many of you. In addition to teaching in self-contained and collaborative settings, our hosts bring a unique perspective to the challenges and triumphs of raising a special needs child. From classroom strategies to heartfelt family moments, they offer practical advice, empathy, and a community of support. Discover how their personal experiences can shed light on your journey and gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of special education both in and out of the classroom. Welcome to the tribe!
Life in the IEP Tribe
Advocating for Every Child's Educational Journey
Discover the profound impact of inclusive education with our guest, Lane Limpert, a devoted first-grade teacher and passionate advocate for integrating special education students into general classrooms. Lane shares her inspiring journey and offers valuable insights from her 19 years of teaching experience and her perspective as a parent of a child with special needs. Learn how fostering an inclusive environment not only builds confidence and social interaction among students but also enriches the learning experience for everyone involved.
Lane's expertise shines through as she discusses the importance of collaboration between general and special education teachers. By embracing open communication and co-teaching strategies, educators can create a supportive classroom environment that benefits all students. Lane stresses the necessary mindset shift required to view students with diverse needs as valued members of the classroom community. This episode promises to reshape your understanding of what it means to truly support every child's potential from day one.
Finally, join us as Lane reflects on her personal journey advocating for her autistic son, Lawson, as he transitions to a general education setting. Her story underscores the power of parental advocacy and the significant role it plays in shaping a child's educational path. Balancing special and general education supports can be challenging, but Lane's determination and flexibility reveal the rewards of finding the most beneficial environment for each child. Tune in for an engaging discussion on the transformative power of inclusion that will leave you inspired.
so, laura, I'm super excited about this particular recording. Go ahead ask me why. Why, jared? I'm glad you asked so we get to have as part of our podcast somebody that we have had the privilege of working with, um, spending time with, sharing churns with in the school setting, and she has agreed to come chit chat with us and I'm super excited about that. Would you like to introduce her?
Speaker 2:Sure, so on the line here. Is that what we call it, still on the line. I mean it's on the computer, but okay, so we have the first grade teacher. She's the first grade teacher that we worked with for many years and she was actually implemental. Is that the right word? Implemental?
Speaker 1:Instrumental.
Speaker 2:Instrumental. There we go, see Lane, you don't have to worry about it, I mess up all the time.
Speaker 1:See, look, you already said her name before introducing her.
Speaker 2:I know, I know Instrumental and actually the inclusion process of our kids. She came to us and said, hey, let me have that one. Can I have that one for a little while in my classroom? And what about this one? Can that one come too to well? Can they come a little bit more well? How about a little bit more? And so that just opened that whole realm of inclusion. So we have, for the past several years, shared many students, and so this is lane limpert, and she has, she has experience. She is a general education teacher that has much experience working with special education students of all abilities and she also is a parent of a child with special needs as well. But we're double dipping here, because she's got some great insight on how to include our kids in the general education classroom and she also has insight on how a parent can get their child included in the classroom with their typically developing peers.
Speaker 1:So, Ms Lumber, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm fine, I'm so glad you guys let me come on here tonight.
Speaker 1:So, first things first. What is your deepest, darkest secret? Go, never mind. Now you know that is a question that if we ever get your principal on here with us, I will not ask her because I feel like she would go ahead and tell the world. I'm going to leave it at that. No names, no, nothing else, just All right.
Speaker 1:So we're going to have a chit chat about inclusion. Now Laura and I can get on here and we can talk all day long about kids need needed to be included with their peers. All of that we can do it to our blue in the face, but sometimes when somebody hears it from somebody else, it clicks, and so we're going to have a quick discussion about that, about inclusion, and I got to tell you so your name has kind of become a descriptor for us Like all right, so who on the kindergarten team will be our limpert? Who on the third grade team is going to be our limpert? So you are like the lens that we view everybody through. But no pressure, okay.
Speaker 1:So if you don't mind, can you kind of give us a little bit of an idea of what it was that? Because, like laura said, I mean you. You wanted to spend time with our students. It wasn't necessarily like we went after you and we're begging you to spend time with them. What is it that that kind of caused you to want to have them in your classroom?
Speaker 3:Well, so really I just loved them and I would just see them and talk to them and they would talk to me. We had, we built a little relationship together and I was like you know what, why can't they come with us to recess, and why can't they come with us to resource? Or why don't they come for Fun Friday or something fun?
Speaker 3:Because their peers are here, let's take them over. So then I just kind of started asking Miss Curtis like hey, do you mind if I like borrow your student? Like I think they would really enjoy this activity. And so she let me. And so then we just kind of kept going from there. But I just saw those babies and just to build a relationship with them.
Speaker 1:Well, and it certainly did snowball. It went from one student to I don't know. I think we were sending like three or four at one time or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we had like four come in during resource, which that was fun.
Speaker 1:So, so what did you see? You see, now let me ask you this, miss limper, how long have you been a teacher?
Speaker 3:oh my goodness, 19 years, fantastic you know you.
Speaker 1:You are and I mean this in the most respectful way you are an oddity like I'm reading all the time these papers about people bailing on the teaching field because it's hard and Laura brings up a lot. I mean, it was hard prior to COVID, but then after that it added just a whole nother layer. So thank you for being willing to do all of that, because it ain't the easiest job in the world.
Speaker 2:And I know you're not there for the money.
Speaker 3:I'm just there for the babies.
Speaker 2:Right. We know that. We know that.
Speaker 1:So, over the course of your 19 years, what would you say were some key benefits that you've observed in students who participate in your classroom that typically aren't in your classroom?
Speaker 3:Well, I noticed. Do you want me to talk about like socially?
Speaker 1:Hey, you talk about whatever you want to within reason.
Speaker 3:So, socially, I noticed, like my friends who were coming, they were learning how to interact with their neurotypical peers. They were building relationships with them, they were building confidence. I mean, I had a student that came to me and had a great relationship with another student in my class and they communicated in a different way than using words all the time and that was beneficial to both of those students because you know they were both learning from each other. So, socially, I just really feel like they were building relationships. Am I rambling?
Speaker 1:No, ma'am, you're good.
Speaker 3:Okay. So you know they were building relationships with other students, they're learning from other students, they're being able to communicate with those students, building confidence and their self-esteem. Those are some things that I noticed.
Speaker 1:Well, and we've even seen, as a testament to what you're talking about. We've seen relationships that were forged in your classroom that are still happening today. Like these, students will see each other from each side of the cafeteria and, of course, it's our student that'll be the one that yells out to the other one, but they're still there. And so what you've done, and any teacher that does provide that inclusion space with the heart that you're talking about, I want to see these children become everything that they possibly can, whatever that means. How can we help them do that? And it's something that is stretched beyond your classroom. It's stretched beyond a single year in school. I know we had one parent tell us of a student that went to you that they were just blown away at how many people, like, how many kids, knew their child, and it all stemmed from that being a part of that group.
Speaker 3:Right, because it's not just about my friends who are coming for part of the day. It's also about my friends that are with me all day. They're also learning things from our other friends.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I know we tried things a little different last year than we had before too. We did more of that inclusion from day one, from the get-go First thing in the morning, day one, and so this is kind of off script a little bit. What did you see? The difference in benefits as far as starting from the day one to just the hey, why don't you come on Friday?
Speaker 3:So just looking back at those years, so when my friends started coming on the very first day of school, there was no difference. They had no. The students that were in my room all day had no idea that these friends were any different than them. They like, oh, they're coming in, we have another adult in here for a little while and look how fun this is. Look at these new friends and they just they were more accepting and they built better relationships with those students and that makes my heart happy, that they're together.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's really, it's really neat to see.
Speaker 3:But that's I mean. That's what I really noticed was relationships were formed and they were a part of our class. It was never like, oh, we need to. You know like oh, we have to go get them, or whatever. It was like when are they coming? We have to have them in our room, they need to do this with us.
Speaker 1:Like it was student driven right and teacher driven, if that makes sense, yeah absolutely yeah, because you know there's, there's a, there's a big difference between teacher driven and student driven. You know that, um, probably better than we do, uh, but it's, it is not. It is not, um, out of the realm of possibility that a teacher, and for whatever reason, may not understand, not be trained in dealing with students that have different exceptionalities. But there are teachers that don't want anything to do with them, and not from a nasty like I can't stand that kid or anything like that, but hey, I don't know how to help him. So if I'm a teacher that feels that way, like having a special education or special needs student in my classroom causes my anxiety to skyrocket. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to approach them. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to approach them. I don't know what are some strategies or ideas, or maybe even a mindset that you would recommend to that teacher.
Speaker 3:Well, first strategies. Like my first thing would be we. Well, I feel like we, you guys, the courtesy for myself had a great relationship and I could go to you and say, hey, what can I do to help, or how can I have this child be more successful, what are some strategies I can implement? So I really feel like being able to talk to the special education teacher, have a little co-teaching going on, if that's possible. You have a co-teacher almost every year and I love it.
Speaker 3:So have a co-teacher, a little collaboration. Those are some important things and I mean, I don't know, maybe my mindset is different, but these are children. They want to be a part of this. I want them to be a part of it. I need to adapt myself to help them be in my room so that they are successful. I don't know.
Speaker 1:And I promise listen to everybody that's listening to this, which is pretty much my mom. I don't know if anybody else listens to it, but she enjoys it.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty sure other people do, because I do it.
Speaker 1:We didn't tell you what to say. Okay, so you're echoing a lot of things that we've said over and over, and one of the things that we've seen in our study and in our research is what you were just talking about the collaboration piece. In our study and in our research is what you were just talking about, the collaboration piece people being willing to talk to each other, to work with each other, to support each other for that common goal, which is let's help this child be everything that they can be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Go ahead.
Speaker 3:I was going to say, and also I know last year you guys sent a support person during that time that my friends were able to be with us and that was also very helpful because she was able to say like, oh, if you do this, or maybe try this, or you know, I might say to her like oh, oh, I don't know, like I wasn't supposed to.
Speaker 2:Like, take the little things right there are no more things this year.
Speaker 3:No more things, no more things okay so, but she was like very, you know, and it it prevented problems that could have occurred. And she's like, yeah, that's fine, like Like it's not. You know, I'm like, oh okay, I just didn't know. So it was very helpful to have that support person there. And then, you know, there were times that I didn't even need her there, even though I wanted her all the time, but she would be like I can't, I can't come at this time, but my friends can come this time, but my friends can't come. And so then I knew how to make the room successful for them. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Always the support of everyone else around.
Speaker 1:Ain't that the truth, though? Like the more people you can have on on the same page as you, on the same team as you, I think everybody wins.
Speaker 3:I agree. I agree, especially our friends.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, so we've talked about some of the effective strategies and helping. What are some of the challenges that you've had when trying to make the inclusive classroom?
Speaker 3:Oh Lord, okay. So I wrote some notes about this. So, like some of the things like I think I mentioned, like there were things that I didn't know and I would ask about that, like, okay, what about this, this? How do I work around this? Um, and then a lot of like um again working with the co-teachers, talking to you guys, um, I feel like I just got off track.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I? I mean, you're just a teacher, right?
Speaker 2:Your job's a cake walker in the day. You can't just come in here and I know All our brains are probably mush right now.
Speaker 3:I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:We're fine.
Speaker 3:I guess some things that helped me, like lots of differentiated instruction, always, always, no matter what. I just that's every day, and so that was very beneficial to help with that inclusive classroom and just knowing what they can do and how to help them move along and succeed further. Lots of like scaffolding, what I'm supposed to be telling you guys. Yep, I keep bringing up the thought of visual aids, like schedules, those kinds of things, so they would know, like this is what is is happening now and this is what will happen next. Um, and then I did do pairing like with other students, like, okay, you, you know, remind our friends to blah, blah you know, whatever it might be like your chromebook or to log in anyway.
Speaker 3:So those were some things that I felt were helpful in the classroom.
Speaker 2:So, like some of the challenges were how do you teach them right? So those are the strategies that you use. I'm sorry. No, that's fine. I'm giving you all the strategies I was using. Right? No, I mean you answered the second part, because the second part, you know was how did you do? Those. So it's difficult to instruct students with so much vast Abilities, yes, abilities, yeah, their abilities are vast. There's differences in that, and so those are some of the things that you use to address that.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm sorry. I knew I was like I just lost my train of thought.
Speaker 2:No, but did you and we see this sometimes and we hear this and I know that we've had conversations during meetings about that, that whole, you know fair? Did you have kids in the classroom going? Well, that's not fair. How come so-and-so gets this, or how come so-and-so? Why can't I have that when they can?
Speaker 3:No. I never did that because I implemented at the beginning of the year. Even every year I've always said fair is not equal, fair is everyone getting what they need and I never had anyone say, well, that's not fair.
Speaker 2:That's absolutely true, yep.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite things to do when a student says that's not fair is can you tell me what fair means and they can't? They just look at me like no, that's not what you. Can you tell me what fair means and they can't. They just look at me like no, that's not what you're supposed to say.
Speaker 3:But yeah, so I did not.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, and that's the way to address it, just like if you did have that and just by telling them you know we get what we need and not everything we want, and we don't always need everything somebody else has.
Speaker 3:And I think that's one of the big benefits. Of inclusion is when they, when our friends, start at the beginning of the year with us, then there never is any question of like, oh why are they getting that and I'm not, or that's not fair again. You know, I always say that every year fair is not equal fair. Is everyone getting what they need. So I just I've never really had anybody say anything about that, and that's great.
Speaker 1:Well, that's something that we even realized this year, because you know, even as an educator, it's a continual learning process and we've learned that, especially when it comes to special education, that it is a continuum. You're all the time looking to see what's going to be the next step for each individual and being flexible and willing to. Our whole thing is is this a hill I'm willing to die on right? Is this something that I'm, am I ready to? It's got to be really important if I'm going to put myself all into it, and we really do appreciate your perspective and what you've done with our students. So here we go, ready.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, I got another question.
Speaker 1:Now this one, this one should be. Oh, who did I hear?
Speaker 2:Did he know you were getting ready to talk about him?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Well, I wasn't, but we can do that.
Speaker 2:So I'm sorry, I thought that's where you were headed.
Speaker 1:No, I was just going to throw out this last question. You go ahead, Mrs Curtis.
Speaker 2:Well, part of this goes from. So we talked about you being a first grade teacher. Do you feel like there's benefits at starting the inclusion process early versus waiting until they're a little more independent and mature and maybe have better behaviors, and what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:I think it should start as early as possible, like I think we should have inclusion, start in pre-K or kindergarten whenever those students enter school. Because you I think we've talked about this before you model peer behavior and so if there is a behavior they might see those other friends modeling appropriate behavior and then, that would you know, they would begin to model appropriate behavior as well. But yes, I think it should start immediately Kindergarten, pre-k, whenever students start. You know Lawson, my son started pre-K, pre-k, regular ed, pre-k last year and just so many benefits, so many benefits for him. So yes, I think it should start immediately when children start school.
Speaker 2:Mr Curtis is like wrap it up. No, no, no, no, not at all.
Speaker 1:No, we're good. Hey, listen, we are. You're preaching to the choir, we're, you know, back here singing the hallelujahs or whatever, but no, and just so you know that the Department of Education agrees with you. So, like coming down from the federal government, I just want to throw that out there. So you're on to something there, ms Limpert. Okay, now Lawson.
Speaker 3:Who's Lawson?
Speaker 2:That's my baby.
Speaker 3:We know who he is Lawson is my six-year-old, or he will be six in February, so soon he will turn six and he is in kindergarten this year and he is autistic.
Speaker 1:So, then, you have yet another perspective when it comes to our students, not just the special education students that spend time with you in your classroom, in your general education classroom, but you've seen the effects personally with your own son.
Speaker 3:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Do you mind sharing with us some of the things that you've seen, the benefits of him? You've mentioned that there are benefits. What have you seen in Lawson in the time that he's been able to go from a special education setting to?
Speaker 3:I'm sure y'all hear him in the background.
Speaker 1:That's quite all right. Hey listen if that was the worst that we could hear. We're.
Speaker 3:A-OK, I'm sorry, no, no, no, it's all good. So he was in special education, pre-k, and then when he turned four, I was like you know what, if I don't try putting him in the regular education program, like he's still gonna receive all of his ip services yes, ma'am oh, I'm going to try it, I'm going to see.
Speaker 3:And, um, I mean, you guys work with special education students so you know that most five-year-old autistic children do not pretend play and I agree that all play. You know, it doesn't matter the way you play, it's all play. But he never did pretend play and probably about four months after school started and probably about four months after school started, like he was coming home and getting like toys out that you would have to pretend and the people talk and like whatever. So he was starting to do pretend play and he was able to sit and listen to a teacher read a story and he could answer, you know, basic comprehension questions about it. He was accepted by his peers. You know he still jumps up and claps and does those things, but no one is like why are you doing that? Because that's just who he is and the other children are like oh yeah, that's him. They move on about the day.
Speaker 3:He's also a Gestalt language processor and so he's in like stage five right now. So he's close to moving into six and even this year just listening to him talk like he's having conversations that he would have never had before, and I always say I remember when my older boys I have two older boys they would say like mom, look, look, watch this, look, look. And I think I can remember one time that Lawson said that to me. But this school year he said it multiple times. Like mommy, look at this. Or look at my work, like he'll show me stuff. So that's all. Like he would have never done that if he was not with those peers and his special education team and his regular education team.
Speaker 2:So those are my benefits All right? What did you have to do to get him from the you know, the small group special education classroom into the general education classroom?
Speaker 3:So he was in Babies, can't Wait at, you know, before he turned three, turned three, and I did put him in special education, pre-k. And, like I said that second year, I was like he's four, I'm going to try it. And so we just had to have an IEP meeting. So we had an IEP meeting, we met with the IEP team and I said, look, I want, I want him here. Like, I'm driving this meeting, I'm the one in control, this is where I want him. I want to try it. If it doesn't work, we can go back. Right, so that is what I did. Then, um again, like he does have supports in place this year, because he does need someone with him at lunch and he does need someone with him during the day for about a 30 minute block during like a writing time, right.
Speaker 3:So those things are in place, but other than that, that's how we did it. I drove that meeting and I said this is what I want and this is how I want it done, and if it doesn't work, we can revisit and regroup and make up another plan that's going to be the most beneficial for him.
Speaker 2:But we have to try, yes.
Speaker 3:We always have to try, but we have to try.
Speaker 2:Yes, we always have to try. Always have to try, Because if you don't, you don't know. That is correct. And I know that you talked about the behaviors and it's not always the case, but however there's, you know, when there's a special education, small group classroom, there's typically behaviors that come along with that Not always, but typically. And so I know we've spoken before and you said well, if he's going to mimic behaviors, where do you want him to be?
Speaker 1:With his neurotypical peers Right yeah absolutely, and so if somebody is listening to this and they don't get anything else out of this conversation, which I want to say thank you for being willing to talk to us about all this. It really has been great.
Speaker 3:I really do enjoy it. I'm sorry I went off on a tangent.
Speaker 1:But what I would want a listener to take, if they can only take one thing, is that, like you said I love the way you put it you drive the bus, parent. If you want to try it, try it. It doesn't matter what anybody else says. If you want to try it, try it, and there's no shame in trying and going back. I don't want to say going back because it's not what it is Okay, so then we'll move to this other setting.
Speaker 3:It's just finding the best setting for your child and if you don't try and give them the opportunity, you will never know. And as a team, you have a whole team of people to help you set your child up for success.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yep, and that's one thing that we can say, both having boys that have gone through the uh, the camp. Our school system is that we have some fantastic teachers, uh, in this district, and, and I am willing to bet that there's fantastic teachers in every district and that any parent that feels like their son or daughter should have an opportunity to at least try it out. Push for that, because there's people in those buildings that love your kid too.
Speaker 3:Yes, people, you don't even know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:So I think that's about it. Ms Lumber, did you have anything else you wanted to say?
Speaker 3:No, thank you guys for having me on here, and I miss seeing you every day.
Speaker 2:We miss seeing you too, and thanks for coming on, and you were our first guest, so we thank you.
Speaker 1:Yep, you're at the top of the list.
Speaker 3:I give my little reward now, my little treat.
Speaker 1:There you go. Hey, be checking the school mail, we'll send it over. All right, so for this episode, we're going to go ahead and wrap it up Again. Thank you, ms Limpert, for hanging out with me and my fantastic wife, laura, and we'll talk to you guys later.