Life in the IEP Tribe
Join us as we dive into the world of special education with two educators who have walked the same path as many of you. In addition to teaching in self-contained and collaborative settings, our hosts bring a unique perspective to the challenges and triumphs of raising a special needs child. From classroom strategies to heartfelt family moments, they offer practical advice, empathy, and a community of support. Discover how their personal experiences can shed light on your journey and gain valuable insights into navigating the complexities of special education both in and out of the classroom. Welcome to the tribe!
Life in the IEP Tribe
Creating Supportive Environments for All: Embracing ABA
Unlock the potential of Applied Behavioral Analysis (ABA) with our distinguished guests, Rebecca and David Johnson, both Board Certified Behavior Analysts (BCBAs). Discover how ABA extends beyond therapy for individuals with autism and into everyday scenarios like seatbelt reminders and the efficiency of business practices. Rebecca and David share their experiences and strategies for using ABA principles to foster independence and address socially significant behaviors, emphasizing personalized approaches and the importance of collaboration with families.
Explore the journey of effective communication and behavior reinforcement, particularly for children facing communication challenges. We discuss how clear expectations and consistent language, such as using "safe hands" or "calm hands," can guide children towards positive behaviors in various situations. Learn about the significance of generalizing these skills across different environments and how embedding these strategies into daily routines creates a supportive atmosphere that promotes adaptability and growth.
Collaboration stands at the heart of successful ABA implementation, especially in educational settings. In our conversation, we stress the value of teamwork among teachers, parents, caregivers, and specialists to create supportive environments that understand and accommodate the unique needs of each child. Rebecca and David's dedication is apparent as they share how being a reliable presence in classrooms and homes can make a profound impact. We express gratitude for their insights and passion, setting the stage for future enriching discussions.
so we're going to kick off another one, another podcast episode, with other people. I'm very excited about this, and so, uh, a couple weeks ago we got to have, uh, one of our friends, miss limpert, on with us and that was super cool and we really enjoyed it. And then last week we got to talk with another special education teacher who's been in this game for a very long time and Freda Buck. Todd Zander.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Todd Zander and.
Speaker 1:Todd Zander. Yeah, we were very excited about that. So this week we have not just one, but two, yes, and they are coming to talk with us about this thing. I'm going to say it's going to be about ABA, but I think there's a lot of things that are going to fall underneath it, and so one of the things that we're going to have to do after I introduce you is we're going to have to probably explain what all the acronyms are the A B and the A and the B C and the B A and the all of that stuff. But today, tonight, this evening, this episode that's where I'm going to. This episode we have Rebecca and David Johnson. Did I get that right?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, good, because names are horrible. True story. So check this out. I was doing a wedding and luckily it was a very, very small one and we're standing there and so I use the same wedding script every wedding. Right, I mean, why wouldn't the world? Will we try to reinvent the wheel? So I get up there and and, uh, I start reading through the script and I called the guy the wrong name. Yeah, I was like, oh, your name's not Tom. That's kind of the thing. So even with stuff right in front of me, I still mess up names. So we have yes, we have David and we have Rebecca with us and they are. Correct me if I get this wrong. You are You're, you know what. You just tell me and everybody else that's listening, which is pretty much my mom. I think that you tell them what it is that you do and what the little letters around your name mean.
Speaker 4:Okay, we are both BCBAs and that is a board certified behavior analyst both BCBAs and that is a board certified behavior analyst. What that means is we both got our master's and then took a certification exam to show that we are qualified to have opinions, sometimes about behavior.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I like that.
Speaker 4:This actually is my 11th. This month is my 11th year of being a BCBA. I've been in the field of ABA for about 13 years and this is a year and a half two years a year and a half as a BCBA.
Speaker 2:I've been in the field since 2016. So ABA is Applied Behavioral Analysis and what we do is basically find what is socially significant for individuals with autism more specifically, but it can be used in many different ways ways. Organizational behavior management OBM is something that is used, probably more commonly known, to help you know where to put stuff on the shelves, how to stock the shelves so people can get what they need, the way to design the supermarket, or you know one of our favorite places to go Chick-fil-A, the way they have the double drive-thru right. Those are all things that try to be more efficient you know the efficiency of a business.
Speaker 4:But we work with people. We work with kids primarily diagnosed with autism, but that's really just because that's the only diagnosis, insurance will pay for and cover the therapy. But we do consult in the schools. We, you know, have experience in different settings. Consult in the schools we, you know, have experience in different settings. Aba is is all around us. The annoying seatbelt you know beeping to put on your seatbelt, taking medication when you have a headache. Those are all principles of ABA at work.
Speaker 1:If I'm understanding you correctly, it is in what ways can we help equip, in this case, a child, to better function in the world around them? And I think I think there's a lot to be said for approaches like that, because I know that, for instance me, growing up, it was very common to be told this is just how you do things, so you do it, whether you're good at it or not. This is how it is, this is how the school setting is, this is how and you just got to make that happen. And I think something that we've learned, laura and I both in the time that we've been in a special education, is that, yeah, that's not the best way to approach it Shocking Like it doesn't, it doesn't quite work that way shocking, like it doesn't, it doesn't quite work that way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I, um, I go into every assessment and when I train people and you know, like my ultimate goal is how can we improve the quality of life for this individual and their families because it's bigger than just them, um, and also, what skills can we teach them so that they can be as independent as possible? And that looks different for every individual. What, what means? What Johnny's independent potential is is going to be different than you know, jenny's independent potential, and, and that's determined by you know, collaborate, collaboration and figuring out. What skills do we have now and where do you want them to go?
Speaker 4:And what is your plan for your child and what is your plan, your five-year plan, where do you want? What are your biggest struggles now? You know, in the, when they're older, what's the plan? Are they going to live independently? Are they going to? You know, figuring out and that's it's hard as parents to kind of figure that out, but unfortunately, I think that's a big part of especially having students with special needs is something you do have to think about what's the next step, what's the long term goal? And kind of figuring out what that looks like so we know how to target right now, so we can plan for that.
Speaker 3:That makes definitely makes sense. There. You're talking about having different plans. Plan. So, like, what is a uh behavior management plan that you like describe a successful one, that you have um made and that implemented uh, in the school setting? And also, how can you take that and put it in the home setting? Because, because you guys go to, you have different settings that you work in. So maybe first answer that, what are the different settings that you serve children and family and then talk about a plan you implemented and how you go from those settings.
Speaker 2:So settings you know me personally that I've worked in other than the clinical setting, you know out, in the community, with multiple individuals in home, in school. Also, there was a few clients that you know I've attended. You know, dentist appointments. Or even something as simple as a haircut. You know we did that, which I thought was, you know, probably one of the coolest things, something that you know most people would really take for granted. You know, being able to get a haircut.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You know this family struggled for a long time. So the settings that you know we have gone into is, you know, just about any setting that the child will, you know, enter in their own life or in the life of their family. So you know in each setting is different. In our clinical setting, obviously, you know we have control of the environment. We have control of you know the outside variables. You know we can set up the rooms in, you know the situations in the way that we need to. But it's not always like that.
Speaker 2:So in the classroom, setting some of the different behavior management strategies that have been used, first and foremost we try to find positive reinforcement that's going to motivate to get the specific, correct behaviors that we're looking for. One small downfall is typically sometimes we don't have the appropriate skill set that we need to reach the function of that behavior, appropriate skill set that we need to reach the function of that behavior. So, for example, if you know we're engaging in, you know, a disruptive behavior, a scream or something you know that could be to get attention right or to get out of doing something, for example. And if we know we scream, you know everybody looks at us. That's very quick to us to teach us how to gain that attention that we're looking for In an inappropriate way, In an inappropriate way you know everybody looks at us.
Speaker 2:That's very quick to us to teach us how to gain that attention that we're looking for In an inappropriate way. In an inappropriate way, you know, because whether it's you know, the positive social attention you know great job, high fives, you know stuff like that. Even a reprimand is attention right. So that is also going to feed those attention-seeking behaviors. So one thing we have to do first is find a replacement skill for that. So you know, if Johnny, for example, needs someone's attention, whether it's you know using their words excuse me, I need your help or raising a hand in classroom, you know, or you know, tap, hey, we need to teach those quickly and reinforce that replacement behavior as heavily as possible. So that's where we go to first, versus something that has already been reinforced for a time frame. You know the screaming and if we can get that, you know we're. We're on a moving track. So with that, you know, we have different reinforcement systems typically in the classroom.
Speaker 2:One that is easy to implement across the classroom in different settings is token economy, which I think most teachers are very familiar with. So it's not having to teach them a different skill set, it's teaching them a skill set that they already have and how to specifically implement it. A couple of different. You know varieties of it in the classroom. We've done individual. You know token boards for each kid at their desk. Know whether it's. You know four or five kids. I've been in a classroom we did like a big wall chart. Each kid has their name and you know, as the teacher was teaching or the parents were teaching or they were in the, each student was engaging in the appropriate behavior that we were looking to gain, whether it was a hand raise or keeping their hands themselves. You know, oh hey, awesome job. And giving them that shout out and giving them that checkmark or that stick, that sticker, not just for them.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:Not just for them to see, but for everybody else in the class to see.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of research to sorry. There's a lot of research side quest about public praise, right, public posting, and one that's effective because one it's like oh well, they got praise. I want that too, so let so, let me do the right thing. You can individualize it. Maybe David needs to work on having nice hands and his hands down, but I need to work on not interrupting and raising my hand right, so you can individualize it. But it's visual, so it's that visual reminder. My name is up there. Why is my name up there? Oh right, my name is up there. You know why is my name up there? All right, I need to raise my hand to to get some attention. So, and there's a lot of research to show the effectiveness of public posting, so I can't, oh, no, no, you're fine.
Speaker 2:And then typically you know each, each individual has something that they're working for Right, Earn your five check marks you get, you know, your, your ball, or your car, or to read your story, or to just go sit in a rocking chair, something that you know is reinforcing that terminal reinforcer for them which you know, when we're using the token economy, we want to gain prior to and it may change while we work through and get our check marks and get our tokens. But you know, if we don't know what we're working for from the start, it makes it really hard to be motivating. And then the simple way we've transitioned that into a house. I worked with this, I worked with this family and they did the same thing and they put everybody's name in the family on the fridge in the same kind of diagram.
Speaker 2:And although it was just for the daughter, you know, mom's name was up there, dad's name was up there, brother's name was up there. So anytime anybody engaged in this appropriate havers, you know, uh, doing their chores, picking up their stuff, putting their backpack away where it goes, finishing their homework. You know these simple things, um brushing their teeth, brushing their teeth, not yelling at their sibling.
Speaker 2:You know, using kind language, they would get their check marks, and you know their five check marks or their 10 check marks, and you know we get, uh, whatever it was at the time. You know time on a tablet. You know our ice cream treat. So, um, those are those positive reinforcement ways um to do that. Um, unfortunately, though, I think um Sometimes we get past that and you know we engage in some challenging behaviors and we need to find appropriate ways to manage those in the classroom. So you know it's important to find the function of those and meet that as quickly as possible, and that's where teaching, that replacement behavior kind of comes into place.
Speaker 3:So these positive charts and, rebecca, you said they've done a lot of research on that, and so I'm assuming, by you saying that, that they found that the positive public charts are more effective than the, let's say, the old school stoplight and where you're bumping them down for the negative behavior. Is that? Would that be a good assumption?
Speaker 4:Yeah, like oh, you lost recess, oh you're on red, oh, the up and down, the color charts. I think that, right, it goes back to finding the function of the behavior and that the function of my behavior is attention, whether you move me to red or you move me to blue or you know wherever in between, or I lost recess, I, I bothered you, I took time out of your teaching to to tell me something, so I got attention right, and so I'm going to continue to do that, because a lot of times and as parents we do it, and clinicians we do it, and as teachers we do it we we miss a lot of the catchy being good, right, it's a lot of.
Speaker 4:I see you at your seat, I see you yelling, I see you right. The school has, you know, pbis and they use class dojo a lot. That's a token economy and I think that that can be implemented really well. And it can be implemented not effectively if we only catch that you're talking in the hall, you've lost a dojo, but we didn't catch the other 50 times. I was walking in the hall quietly, right. So I think that it's definitely important to identify, you know, making it clear what is it that, what are, what are we working on? What are we trying to do? Make that clear to everyone involved in like, okay, that's what we're going to provide attention for, that's what we're going to give tokens for, that's what you know, that's what we're going to acknowledge and bring attention to or provide reinforcement to. Is the desired behavior, saying what we want you to do not, hey, get off the table. It's like feet on the floor, don't stand on your chair.
Speaker 4:It's bottom in your chair. You know what I mean, like telling me what I am supposed to do, especially when we interact with kids who have a communication deficit Right.
Speaker 4:And so if I say don't stand on the chair, all I heard was stand chair right, like I, if I have communication deficit. That's a lot of words that you know. The message isn't clear, and so it's really important to be clear in what our expectations are. So I'm gonna tell you what to do. Hey, let's have safe hands. You know that's a quick and easy way. I'm a big fan of like hey, fold your hands. If you're doing this, you can't hit me, you can't pinch me, Right, and it's a quick, and we can do this in the store and we can do it at home, and we can do it in the playground, and we can do it in the lunchroom, in the car, we can do it in the car. So I'm a big fan of you know, hey, hold your hands.
Speaker 3:Instead of don't hit, no, we don't pinch, no, we what we do, because I'm doing it Like oh yeah, let me show you.
Speaker 4:You know, I know a lot of times you want to be like don't hit, and I know I understand the desire to do that, but it's right.
Speaker 4:Hold your hands, cause if your hands are like this, it's really hard to you know, pinch and do some of those. And also you're telling me what to do and it's, it's to the point hold your hands, safe hands, whatever language you know we want to use, but pointing out the it's to the point Hold your hands, safe hands, whatever language we want to use, but pointing out the what to do and reinforcing that desired behavior goes a lot further.
Speaker 2:And do you see benefits to? You talked about this strategy, using the same strategy and same language at school and at home. Yeah, so I think that's obviously generalization is really important in what we do. Um, working across different settings, different environment, different people implementing the different things, um, we would love for you know it to be generalized in a way that anybody can say kind of anything semi-related to it and they understand. Unfortunately, it's not. It doesn't react that quickly.
Speaker 2:Typically, when we teach replacement behaviors or you know even that simple fold your hands or calm hands, it is the same immediately just to get that response that way. Calm hands, great Thanks for coming. Calm hands, great, and reinforce that calm hands. So that would be the SD that we would teach everybody to use and it would be really important to use that because that in our setting, in the clinic, that's what we have used to. You know, implement that. This is the behavior, the desired behavior, we're looking for. You know even something as simple as you know having a kid. Take a break. You know some of the kids depending on their communication skills hey, bud, you look frustrated. Let's take a break. You know some of the kids depending on their communication skills. Hey, bud, you look frustrated. Let's take a break, right, which is fine if we have that communication skills, but if we have the, you know, receptive and expressive deficits, we need to find a way to, you know, quickly. Do that, hey, bud, take a break or, you know, assign break.
Speaker 4:Or a picture of what I think you said blue mat or blue area.
Speaker 4:You said earlier think you said blue mat or blue, uh, blue area, you said earlier, whatever that is, like you know, um, I think the communication is super important. It's important, um, across all settings. And so generalization in the sense of we have the skill here, we have it's great if in my four walls we can get this behavior under control. But that's not that kid's reality, right, they're going to go into the store, they're going to go into the school, they, they're going to go at home and we need to be able to generalize that skill across all those settings.
Speaker 4:And, like David said, it's it's ideally we can kind of we try to teach different language so that they respond the same way, and it doesn't have to be, in our experience, kids with autism, or you know, we like routines, we like sameness, but we also have to teach flexibility and make it predictable.
Speaker 4:And so the model if I model it and I say safe hands and I model it and I say calm hands and I model it and I say hold your hands right, I'm using different language so that anybody might say something different, but they all mean this. So that's a way that that's. Another form of generalization is that I'm using different instructions, but the behavior is going to be the same, because it's really important to teach that flexibility Right it's. It's really important that we don't have to say the same thing, thing the exact same way in all environments to get that behavior. That's not functional for that individual. And so it's important that when we're teaching kids, either in the clinic or in the school setting, that we're embedding generalization into that and saying it different ways with the same model.
Speaker 4:And you know.
Speaker 3:So yeah, period you've talked a lot about um. You're saying you know kids and students and whatnot. Is there an age cap or your age range like what youngest, oldest of um individuals you serve?
Speaker 2:um, I've served individuals, uh, the oldest individual I've personally worked with, I believe he was 24. Um, and you know, with this individual we work um, he um, you know, very, uh, our communication skills were great Um, some, some things in the world we didn't understand because it wasn't, you know, routine and regimented, um, right. So some of the things we worked on is he, he had a, a big desire to get his GED, um, and then get a job, um, and he wanted to work at Taco Bell, which I love because, uh, you know, I support the Baja Blast. Um, so you know, the different things we worked on is one figuring out, okay, what are the steps that we need to do to be able to take that test? Okay, right, so we figured that out, I said, and then, you know, we sat down okay, what is going to be on that test and what do we need to be ready for?
Speaker 3:Oops, I think we froze, they froze.
Speaker 2:And he got I'm sorry, hi, um, hi, hey, we're back. We figured out all the steps, right, um, and you know we got it scheduled and he figured out how to get there. And you know he didn't drive. So it's like, okay, well, if your parents can't take you, what are other ways we can get there? He's like, okay, we can call an uber. Um, I didn't really follow up on how he got there, but he got there, he took it. You know, he passed test and, as far as I know, he, you know, landed that job at Taco Bell because we worked on job applications and interviews and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:We don't in in the clinic. I've primarily in the clinic setting and in the school setting. We don't really have an age limit. It's as soon as kids can get diagnosed again, because insurance only pays for a diagnosis. And as far as an age cap, we primarily work with children but also ABA can be effective in any realm of life abilities. But it's really what's appropriate and what's functional.
Speaker 4:If I have a bunch of two-year-olds in the building and I have an 18-year-old who needs services to work on job applications, that's not really functional or appropriate for that individual and so am I going to be able to serve his needs? Probably not in that setting, because right now our building is filled with, you know, early intervention age. So it's kind of looking at that as far as ABA and what as a BCBA. It's kind of looking at that as far as ABA and what as a BCBA right limits? There aren't really any. Our ethical code dictates we work within our scope of what we know and what we have experience with in practice can do effectively and ethically, but also from a from a clinic standpoint. Taking that into consideration, can I meet your needs from a clinic standpoint? Taking that into consideration, can I meet your needs Right. Can I? Is this an appropriate setting for you to be around at 24?
Speaker 2:to be around?
Speaker 4:probably not.
Speaker 4:And so taking that into account, or flip side right, if I have a bunch of 18 year olds, teenagers, is it appropriate to then have a three-year-old come? And you know, so it's just taking that into account. And and if we can meet your needs, and that's you know. So it's just taking that into account and and if we can meet your needs, and that's you know, on an individual clinic basis, but as a, as a field, there isn't really a limit. We currently, in our company where we work, serve, I think our youngest is two Um, and the oldest we currently have is uh 16. Um and so um. My baby cannot be 17, uh, anyway, so um, um.
Speaker 4:But we, you know, we worked out the schedule so we have age-like peers at certain, because that's that's the skill we're working on with that individual um, you know, we have different individuals. We have a um 11, 14, 14 year, 14 year old who has very minimal communication and some, you know, self injurious behavior and and limited functional skills, and so he comes to see us in the afternoons and we work on those skills with him, you know. So it's about making sure that we have the right supports in place and that we can meet those needs in the right age group. If we're working on social skills and I have no peers, you know I'm not doing. I'm doing that. That student, that client, a service.
Speaker 1:So so if we, if we come into contact with, with parents who maybe feel like they're at their end, they don't know what else to do, little Jimmy, you know, little Jill is middle school, high school, and it's not too late, right, we should tell the parents can reach out and we'll, we'll get them in the right direction.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's never too late, I think um, you know, the biggest, uh, the biggest um tips and the quickest is um one. We try to identify the function of whatever behavior is happening. If it's inappropriate behavior, why is this happening? All behaviors communication. Aba focuses on four main functions, four main reasons why behaviors occur and kind of categorize them accordingly. And then when we try to identify, okay, why is it occurring, what's a more appropriate way to meet that need? Right?
Speaker 4:So, like we were talking, about earlier yelling right, so yelling is not necessarily appropriate. Okay, what's a more appropriate way to meet that need? And so that's how we work on replacement behaviors. It has to meet that same need, stereotypy. And so they're like in a classroom setting, you can imagine, this is really disruptive and it's pretty consistent and constant.
Speaker 4:And so, you know, we try to do a component analysis. Okay, why are we doing this? Is it the sound? Is it the vocals? Do we need headphones? Can we try music? Is it the sensation? Do we need to simulate that in some way? Right, like recreate that, that vibration, right.
Speaker 4:And so trying to identify, like, really nitpick, what is it that is reinforcing and maintaining this behavior? And so, obviously, that's a. You know a case by case situation, but overall there are. You know what, why are we doing this and how can we do this more appropriately? And then creating contingencies, and what I mean by that is when A happens, b happens every time, and making sure that those are clear, they're concise and it's consistent. Right, if I say we do our homework and then we get ice cream and then you do your homework three days in a row and I'm like oh, I forgot, I forgot, I forgot, you're going to stop doing your homework or you're going to stop believing what I say. And you know, obviously that's an exaggerated example, but it's the contingency.
Speaker 4:When a happens, b happens every time and it's clear how to do that. It's not, you know, sometimes, and once in a while, and you know, if we say a contingency, then that's what's going to happen. If I hear a lot like, hey, do you? If this happens, I'm going to call mom, well, you're either going to call mom or you're not. We're not going to do this empty threat thing, right, like if I'm doing this, you're calling mom, okay, I'm doing this, we call mom. Or if I'm doing this, I get X, y, z, okay, then I get it right. And so making sure that what we say we mean and that it's clear and it's to the point and it it's consistent that it happens, um, every time.
Speaker 1:So I think, like the favorite, my favorite two words in this entire conversation has been replacement behavior, because I don't think, I don't think we naturally consider the why behind right, we just want to tell kids and even adults that we work with no, you just do, because I said do, or that's just how we do it, or you know a number of different reasons why, but asking the question, why?
Speaker 1:why is it that you know this child is acting this way?
Speaker 1:And I understand the you know desire to extinguish certain behaviors and all that, but what you're talking about is you're you're talking about working with the person and not with a set of rules.
Speaker 1:You're talking about finding what is it that is going to help this child to be the best thing.
Speaker 1:You know, one of my favorite, uh, professional learnings that we sat in was when we went and we listened to Rebecca and she says I'm all, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to share your secret. She says, listen, I want to change the world, and the truth is that we have an opportunity to do that, and we don't do it by trying to get people to fit our rules. We do it by serving each other and learning each other, and so I just want you to know that Laura and I both uh I mean we we respect and applaud what you guys do and um, and just keep doing it. You know, I gotta say there was a time where I was like ABA, what is that? That's just some of that hippie stuff, right, but then, but then to get to know people that have done the research, that are in the field, that are working with the kids and to hear your heart and to hear and to see what you're saying in action, um has been fantastic and I'm I'm definitely a believer.
Speaker 4:So definitely yeah, you know, uh, the same aba, just like anything. You know there's pros and cons and there's people on both sides of of it and adults who have had ABA and you know, are speaking out against it and and being in the field, you know it's, it's, it hurts a little bit but it's definitely understandable. It's the same, you know you it's. You have a bad doctor, you have a bad teacher, you have a bad ABA therapist and you know I, I understand it can be done badly, you know we we are working with a vulnerable population, population.
Speaker 4:You guys are betting in us and and a lot of times, our kids don't have the words to say, you know, and and so that's always our first goal is how can we get this kid words, whether that's with picture communication, with signs, with with actual vocals, like, how can we get this kid to to express themselves, however quickest and easiest for them? And you know, and that's I'm. I love to hear that you guys are fans, because you know it's I, we care so much. We spend, I'm sure, as you guys do.
Speaker 4:Pillow talk is like what did you think about this? How can we? You know, how can we? How can we do this better? And oh, this, this happened today. And how can we? You know, how can we? How can we do this better? And oh, this, this happened today. And how can we? How can we help him? And it's not about checking boxes. I'm not here trying to be like oh he, he hit. We can't do that. How are we going to fix it? I'm not trying to fix it. How can, how can I better meet your needs? You know, like, what is it that you're trying to communicate? And obviously people, our kids, engage in inappropriate behavior and it gets hilarious, and you know, and they sometimes know, and you know, do it on purpose, and you know, and that's, you know, understandable, but it's okay, how can we, how can we meet, meet these kids where they are and how can we meet their needs and how can we help them navigate their world? You know.
Speaker 2:Right and so, like, like you said, you know when we were growing up, it's just like. This is what it is. You go to school, you sit in class, you do your math. Part of what we do is figuring out these individuals, but also teaching these individuals to navigate a world that's not going to change for them.
Speaker 2:Right, so the world is not going to change for them. You know that's unfortunate, but I think at least now you know, in this day and age we have a lot more understanding. There's a lot more understanding of you know autism and some other. You know deficits and what those things need and you know if we can at least show you know our learners or our classroom kids or even the teachers, how to bend this world that we're in to fit what they need, but also teach them the skill sets to be successful outside of those settings or in other settings. You know that's more important than anything. You know you know collaborating with teachers and families and parents and caregivers and speech therapists.
Speaker 2:It's, you know, it's huge, it's a big part of what we do. Unfortunately, it's not always the easiest, right? It's like I understand what it would be like for you know to show up, you know, first of all, probably potentially unannounced, and be like, oh hey, I'm here to interview today, right? It's like when you, when somebody says your full name, it's like you're going to the principal's office. Okay, what did I do wrong? What are you here to? You know?
Speaker 2:tell me I can't do and we try very hard, especially going into anybody else's setting. We're not here to judge you.
Speaker 4:We're here to what do you need from me?
Speaker 2:We're here to be on the same team Cause, you know, whether it's for the whole classroom or that specific individual, or even even for for you guys like you just might be like hey, I, I need help and you know that's great. Um, one thing I learned a long time ago working with kids is you cannot do it by yourself, preach, and that's the best way to do it is to work as a team. We don't have to. We don't necessarily always have to see eye to eye. We don't even see eye to eye sometimes with programs that you know we have for you clients at the clinic, but we both know that with us, at least, it's. Our main goal is to give this kid the best life. And you know most, most, most people that you know interact with these kids. That's what you know these speech pathologists, the teachers you know, and some paras, you know anyone in the classroom, anyone in you know their speech or any of their other therapies.
Speaker 2:You know that's what they're there to do. And sometimes you know sitting with these parents the hardest thing is like just seeing how much they struggle to one, understand what's going on, and two to them why is it not normal?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:One of the things I've said for a long time is there's no such thing as normal um, you know this, this world that you talked about, like, oh, you're supposed to.
Speaker 3:This ain't nothing normal about no right so we're all in therapy now trying to undo it right yes, we're all just, we're all dysfunctional in some way. We, some of us just hide it better, yeah absolutely but, it's like how do we work together?
Speaker 4:you know, like I know I come into that hi, I'm, you know, from the district to observe and like what do you need from me? Is usually my first question, because I'm not here to to question. I'm not here to judge. Um, you know this is not necessarily how I would do things, but I'm not here to question. I'm not here to judge. You know this is not necessarily how I would do things, but I'm not.
Speaker 4:I say it all the time I I got my SPED teaching credential, I couldn't do it. That's why I do what I do. I, you know, more power to you guys, and I mean that, you know. And so trying to like lessen and take, take people off the defense, Cause we're all. You know I'm here to help you. You know I've ran small groups before. I'm here to observe a kid over there. It's like, okay, you need that. You're missing a parrot today, Let me jump in. And you know I can observe that kid while I'm sitting here. You know, helping. And sometimes you know it's like okay, now we can be friends, Now we, now we're on the same level.
Speaker 3:I've helped you. Are you okay with me being in your room now?
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, we call it pairing. There's a strategy in ABA called pairing, and we could go into the technical, but in an applicable setting it's pairing yourself with reinforcement. Hey, I'm here to help you.
Speaker 4:So when you see me, you're like, oh, that's the one who will step in, and we do that with adults too. For kids, it's like that's the one who will step in, and you know, and we do that with adults too. For kids, it's like that's the one that gives me the high fives, that's the one that will give me Avengers stickers, right, but we have to do it with adults too. It's hey, that's the one who will answer my questions, that's the one who will jump in, right, and that's part of my role. Role is, our role is as a collaborator, as a provider, consulting, you know, especially going into to classrooms and and especially going into homes, right, like that's your domain. I, I am just here to figure out how can I make your life easier, you know.
Speaker 1:So um yeah, good team well, david and rebecca, I think it's about time for us to wrap this up, but let me say so oftentimes you'll hear people talk in different fields and they'll say all the right things and all the right words, but everything that David and Rebecca have shared, with us like we've seen it and experienced it firsthand.
Speaker 1:We've heard both of them say, hey, we're here to help you, how can we help? And then we've seen them actually there and help. So not just all talk, but thank you so much for number one, what you guys do and we get all excited every time we see you guys come to the building because we know that you're there. Like I said, you're there to serve these kids, to love these kids and to help them be everything that they can be, regardless of what happens outside of the building, like it really is about them. And also thank you for hanging out with us and doing this podcast. Maybe we'll do it again sometime. What do you think?
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So we could talk about. You know what we do all night.
Speaker 3:That's what I was getting ready to say they, you know what we do. All that's what I was getting ready to say. They're like us. We can talk about our jobs and y'all can talk about your jobs, I'm sure. And we, yeah, we do the same. We do the same thing. We come home and say, okay, so let's go sit out back and maybe we'll talk about what are we doing this weekend. Well, hey, do you know what happened today?
Speaker 1:And yeah, so Usually it goes more like man, I'm so tired, yeah, me too. Let's get home and we just relax About the time our rear end hits the seat. We're talking about work, so, but again, thank you guys, and we'll talk to you some other time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you for having us Sure enough.